The ex-people’s Deputy of Ukraine Taras Chornovil in an interview
“Batman” on TV channel “112 Ukraine” told about the murder investigation of his father, Vyacheslav Chornovil, on the work of Viktor Yanukovych, and his political antipathies
Bazman: “Batman”. In the Studio Taras Chornovil, ex-the people’s Deputy of Ukraine. In an interview you said: “After the murder of the father of any interrogation not conducted, and Minister Kravchenko have categorically stated from the podium that it was an ordinary accident. Literally from the first day the materials concerning the case of father destroyed. By the way, still continue to suppress the investigation. Some of those have to do with anything, today is a very good feel among the same “dear friends”. It has been 18 years since that moment as KAMAZ ran into the car of your father. Now you know who killed him?
Chornovil: I know now not much more than you did. I know today is only the specific mechanisms of how disorganized a consequence of how stifled his how falsified. How was working with the experts, as they give false conclusions. I know this because I had the trial, which lasted 2.5 years. I was at all the meetings, we interviewed a huge number of people, and after that, it became clearer how these things are jammed, as they are destroyed. Who is the killer? We know who framed the KAMAZ? I can’t say it after the trial. Then at least I knew that the performer was a regular driver with a criminal and suddenly missing the Affairs of the tow. And after the trial, I don’t even know if he was driving, because the data that we during the trial, suddenly found out, saying that in KAMAZ, obviously, were quite different people, and Cutely a few minutes after the accident is unknown who pushed for KAMAZ to the scene of the accident. In fact, in this case, every year questions are becoming more and real witnesses every year more and less. In the last year for the first time I’m starting to feel some doubt whether it ever investigated. To date the political will “not investigate” the case I do not see. Even under Yushchenko, the political will of many people was “not to investigate”. I do not see today. I mean, today there’s those people among the living who could block the deal.
– And who is blocked?
– A sufficiently long period blocked virtually the entire leadership of the interior Ministry. When he came to Yuri Lutsenko, he started to amend this situation. But there was a Christmas Carol, who was involved in the investigation at the Ministry, he was the first one blocked. For a very long time a very serious lock was in the GPU. At various attorneys General in some point started to investigate something (Golomsha tried to investigate something), and then instantly changed the investigation team, and the other the attorney General, and it was that and the same, gave instructions to suppress.
– You know, to whom it was profitable?
– I know a lot of versions, but I know that the decision was made at a meeting of one of the election headquarters Leonid Kuchma. But it was the fact that I can imagine, I can’t name a specific customer. I can only assume that this was the case when the murder Chornovil was more necessary part of the Kuchma entourage than him. Kuchma gave orders for these things. He spoke the phrase: “Make it so that it does not bother me”. And then he pointedly removed itself from any issues in this case. With him on this subject impossible to say. We have heard the stories about Gongadze, for example. And then – did. I know how much this meeting looked like. As the report was led by one of the Vice-Chairman of SBU, telling that all the political attempts to destroy the ratings Chornovil failed, and therefore there is a proposal to move to a military option. I know how to vote.
– Officially now the consequence at what stage?
– The investigation is not closed. The case was returned to the appellate court on the investigation to the Prosecutor, and, as I understand it, the Prosecutor’s office looking for who to entrust the matter, which is not just “hanging”, and which destroyed virtually all the evidence and that, in fact, are very few witnesses. This is a problematic case, and I hope that it will be investigated. The matter is now re-opened and will be investigated. I’m not rushing, because I understand perfectly that may include terms of the criminal procedure code, namely one year. If it is not investigated, it closes completely and cannot be opened. So I hope that will still be able to form an investigative team of those techs.
– Vitaly Zhuravsky said in an interview that “Chornovil was killed by so-called colleagues on “National movement”. And what kind of presidential candidate that, “probably also was involved in the death of Chornovil,” said Zhuravsky in an interview?
– I think he’s exaggerating. These people, which he said was organized harassment very rude things about him, but this is a political murder. And they are very much involved, including the split of the Rukh. When talking about the candidate, then we are talking about Yevhen Marchuk. I have to Marchuk have other complaints. Before the presidential elections directly Marchuk said that he has a tape of “secret services”, whom he knows personally, have recorded information. And told him personally about the circumstances of Chornovil’s murder. It materials the investigative Commission of the Verkhovna Rada.
– Marchuk said in an interview that it was fake.
– In fact, in hot pursuit, he talked not about the fake, and on other circumstances. Then Marchuk was the Secretary of the NSDC after the first round of Kuchma, and in the second round the theme is absolutely starred. I talked to the people who watched this tape, which Marchuk showed it. They confirmed that it’s not fake. I don’t have to Evgeny Kirillovich major complaints – I learned to live, no complaints about the people I can’t directly blame. I even Kuchma may not have claims because I can’t prove he gave the order, instructed. But people who are told very clearly confirmed the evidence in this case. For me, no doubt.
– Why it was necessary for Kuchma and Marchuk? As was then shown the ratings, from the standpoint of the passage he was impenetrable as a candidate, although he was very much loved by the people.
– This version, which is then actively ran. At that time, sociologists and politicians started to say a different thing. In March it began to be taken seriously: in the second round could go a completely different pair. Very much began to rise the ratings of two people: him and Frost. It was assumed that, possibly, will meet in the second round Chornovil with frost, and not Kuchma and Symonenko. Chornovil was broken in any case this option, the only one in which Kuchma could become President.
– Concerning KGB agents in the “people’s movement”, you know by name, who was it?
– I only know that when collapsed the Soviet Union, but in Western areas, we have all became deputies Chornovil became the Chairman of the Lviv regional Council, we were invited to his KGB General Malik, who was then in charge of the Lviv KGB. He was given to review certain materials (because I wanted to be friends with the new government), the materials of those who knocked.
And who was it?
The father once said one sentence: “I demand lustration, but there is no disclosure, he personally will not spend”. Everything should be according to the law.
But the country must know its “heroes”.
– The lists were then half movement, half of the activists. Some people on something caught: someone suggested to keep a career, and someone that could save him from prison. Then some people chose a different path and refused to become honest. And some began to make a very successful career and to sit “on the needle” has the Russian FSB, took over the archives. I’m not sure I can call those people who refused and became, in the end, decent. But the fact that rogovskoy the item turned out to be a lot of dishonest item has damaged not so much Chornovil as the Ukraine. This we then stopped in 1999.
– Is it true that after the accident your father was still alive and he finished off with brass knuckles?
Is the version, which is now massively starting to roll out, including some new “Rukhovets”. It follows from the materials of one expert. This version looked very serious, while in the course of judicial investigation, we have not established that physically it was impossible to do. In fact, Chornovil, apparently died immediately. I guess if I saw that he had not died, perhaps the explosion would have some were held. It would be something different for him to finish. One of those who were in the KAMAZ who, in our opinion, was the coordinator and directly tracked the implementation – Sholom, a very strange man, who then died very strange. In his remains after the exhumation found hundreds of times greater than a lethal dose of toxic substances. He at the moment sunopsis in the car, immediately said, “Chornovil dead.” He immediately recorded the fact – a kind of “farmer”. I don’t think it was a rebound. This is a dead end way, which the result are sometimes shot down. Although the reasons to think the way the investigation was.
– Many surrounding the case of bodies grew?
– I guess we all don’t know. The Driver Of The Tow. Everyone thinks he’s dead but he’s alive. Went to the trial. It was released under the Amnesty as the culprit of the accident. This thing is not cancelled. If not there will be a new, additional case of premeditated murder. Only will a new charge – he sits in jail. He’s no salvation then will not be. This means that he will be silent, even if he will be intimidated. Shalom died, he was still a coordinator, actually, the person who exactly could tell a lot. And I guess this strange death Goncharova, the militiaman-the werewolf – he could also be implicated. I can’t prove it, but it looks like it’s another body in the case of Chornovil.
– Is it true that Hennadiy Udovenko was transplanted into another car about 10 minutes before the accident?
It is an absolute lie, and very sneaky, those “Rukhovets”, which at that time was doing a split. And even the death of Chornovil, leader of Rukh, did not stop them. It was a campaign lie to throw mud. In fact, Udovenko and back and back went in the other car and never sat in the car Chornovil. Udovenko was already terminally ill, but when he passed on the request to testify in court, he came to the emergency room and a very good testimony was given in this case for him.
– You’ve been in the Party of regions. And you in the “barn book” is?
– Apparently, I’m not, although certain compensation for travel etc., I was paid, because everything was conducted through cash. Accordingly, I took, put the signature, but it seems that it was not “Ledger”. If I took something called “salary”, I would be there did not. I would go feet first. There are certain rules.
– It’s no secret that there are so-called parliamentary salary from the parties. You that it is not paid?
At that time I had other ways to make money – I was simply not given. It was a very good political project, which was very well paid. Actually, I did not only parliamentary function. I don’t like the word “spin doctor”, today it is an absolute taboo. I’m not a political strategist, if I called so, I take it as a personal insult. I am the analyst. But in a period I a little worked on this, and I know that in Ukraine the work of the analyst is perhaps the highest paid. But I never want to do it.
– You know history, when Lipsky for “black” wages to the Party of regions came and the opposition?
I don’t like to talk about money. And not very tracked. I have always had a very tight schedule. When I saw the printout of the “granary books”, I was surprised. Yuriy Kostenko was the leader of the schismatics, but when I saw that he had made millions for me much has become clear from 98-99 years when he headed the division and was against Chornovil. Probably, for many people, the main was stupid pursuit of money. I’m not an idealist: I don’t believe in great purity of Ukrainian politics and for many not surprised. Righteous anger, which can demonstrate policy does not impress me. American journalist more than a year ago, interrogating me about the cashier, angrily told me how I could take some money. And he said, “You will teach me when your Manafort…” it began: I accidentally opened the topic of Manafort, because nobody knew before. But I was a bad witness, I never worked with him and did not want to work.
– And what man Manafort?
– I can’t say. He is ostentatious and a 100% ignoramus in the business. It is zero a professional man, not assessing the situation, without evaluating the materials that make completely false conclusions. Plus, he is very superficial in the work.
– Give an example.
– Main theme – that the suit well sat. The second is the superficiality of the approaches to the materials, the scandal is the Party of regions, where “happy family” was from Chicago, and “girl with umbrella” from the state of Iowa. Notably, the 2007 elections when it became known that PR lost their. I sat up all night at headquarters knew that already lost, then went to sleep as suddenly I was disrupted: “Manafort asks everyone to come.” I arrived, and Manafort we gave a lecture: “We won, and we now it is important that international observers did not suspect that something is wrong. Before the press conference need to be silent”. I told him: “I think we lost.” All sasusaku supposedly Manafort professional, he knows better. After 4 hours all became clear: we got the official results. I, an ordinary MP, have inadvertently collected this data, sitting in the headquarters, and the person who is planning a strategy that introduces 180 degrees the wrong message. What is it?
– Trump and he brought the result given.
The result, Trump gave no Manafort. If not then a scandal and Manafort not pushed by trump, trump had all the chances to lose. Manafort brings victory, it brings defeat. Too controversial and too superficial. I refused to work with him, he even demanded that I was expelled from the electoral list, but this did not happen. I was given the parallel work – I worked myself. I drove through the area as agitator.
– How many actually “barn books”?
I do not know. A few there really is. I will never believe that that which saw, by chance found. It was thrown in because this book has a shot at the money, which was somehow tied to the group of Rinat Akhmetov. There are no people who are somehow linked to Kluyev, Lyovochkin, and would have to be. It is a separate material to the individual financial operation. And there were others – bought politicians. There is no purchase of politicians, and our dear Julia in 2006-2007 spent a huge amount of people at BP, who then told me personally: “what kind of questions? I paid my $ 3 million. Why should I stay in the faction?” There was an agreement, they paid the money and left. But some of them didn’t pay their money (not was), paid the party offices. And then PR outbid in 2007, she gained 300 votes. When a person is bought, it went as planned. When you make a person into Parliament for the first time, put it on the list for the money – this is a big problem. I understand that can never be washed from my membership in the PR, but I have more claims to him, but to those who started the corruption process. Did not start they began mostly with the “Fatherland.” Been in the PR joint stock company. There were the owners of the main stock: they had their deputies, invested in the campaign. But it did not sell, at least the polling places in the list. We sometimes hypertrophies their evil.
– And who else has “granary books”?
– I do not know anyone else there. Cunning and wise, I think it was destroyed.
– Under what circumstances are you, the resident, agreed to head the electoral headquarters of Yanukovych? What were the arguments?
– If it was financial, I would not go 15 years on the same car, would not limit myself in many things, not looking for 5-6 contractors to earn a living. It’s called basic stupidity and laziness. I had a huge claim to Viktor Yushchenko. I was reminded of the meeting at which it was said “to go to the violent option.” The man who led the meeting, had at that time, in addition to other positions, as President of the Fund “Social protection”. And it was Viktor Yushchenko. He didn’t really understand what was going on. Now I already to it have the least claims, but then can you imagine what it was for me. And when I was accused that I was in the party of the murderers of my father, I said, “No. I went against the person I at the time believed the main culprit for killing my father.” I according to the principle “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. I began to look attentively at Yanukovych, and then I just noticed and got started. I led the analyst Granovsky, and then me doing Herman. I had, and I bought it.
– What do you suggest?
Nothing. I was invited once to talk to in the office first. I then told the President that interesting to me to communicate with him, but I’m not in his campaign. He said that he and I are not invited. And then I summed up very cleverly a history in Ivano-Frankivsk, which was orchestrated, I think. Then I started to slack off on the other side. The fact that I was in the moment when the unfolding election campaign Yushchenko, sat and for 4 hours spoke with Yanukovych in his office, although at the moment some interesting people like the Prime Minister is also to get. When I came out, they have definite opinions, and they started making me a lot of rumors in Lviv. Hounding, tried to set fire to the house. For people like me, chronic dissidents in the soul, there is no easier way to drive somewhere than it is very hard to say, “do not go there”. I have not figured out – I went. I do not want to deny, as others do, who worked at Yanukovych – it was a part of my life. I paid the price, and throw today after Yanukovych stone I will not. I understand that ruined his own life and political career I have will be gone.
– We have a policy of never say never. You are not going into politics?
– To be Ukrainian by Phoenix, should be able to tell a good lie. Loud lies silent lies wins. I chronically do not know how to lie. Yes, I was the head of Yanukovych’s campaign headquarters in the third round, but Lutsenko, who was then one of the leaders of the election headquarters of Yushchenko, said that I did not break anything, and I have no complaints.
– Tell that Yanukovych liked to make an impression on the interlocutors. What stories he told you?
– He told me more political stories. Of life were all related to his passion for Golf, cars. When I got out of PR, slamming the door, the main detonator was not a conflict with Yanukovych, and my conflict with Levochkin.
– You saw Yanukovych in anger?
I know the man he broke his nose.
I don’t know these people. But he really liked it when people began to believe that it breaks the jaw, and he began in that tone to speak. I am convinced that this technological developments, although I didn’t know him so. Sometimes when I look at some of today’s politicians, I somehow think that it can rather be evaluated as a kind of victim of certain circumstances, including their addiction, and not, as some of our today, who are much more cynical. Maybe not as successful.
– Are you talking about?
– I have my known dislikes: Tymoshenko, with whom I was friends. I believe once Saakashvili, and when I cheated, I am to this man, even on a subjective level have a tremendous negative.
– In one interview after Yanukovych’s escape, you said that you assume that he died or paralyzed, because they do not recognize Yanukovych on a press-conferences. So he’s alive or not?
– Probably alive. Just at that moment, I suspect that he was really very seriously ill. It, apparently, is forced to go to a press conference in the situation when people are in intensive care. It was necessary to Putin, he had to convey any messages. I think that then is going even further to send troops to Ukraine, to start a major offensive operation against Ukraine, and we had to do it man, Russia is considered at the time the legitimate President of Ukraine. He was in such a state that I didn’t recognize his facial features, facial expressions, behavior. My friends the doctors say that these traits can be when a person has partial paralysis of a certain part of the body.
Who forced Yanukovych to abandon the signing of the European integration?
He really really wanted to have this agreement. He was really afraid of Putin and wanted to oppose him. Perhaps he imagined that in this Association, he will be able to arrange everything so to live in the old way. But after talks in Sochi with Putin, everything has changed. I think that Putin put pressure on the points of security and the threat of murder. Yanukovych, like most politicians, feared that he would be killed.
– The square sponsored by oligarchs?
This Maidan is very different from the Maidan in 2004. There was technology. On this independence technologies could not be. Of course, on the Maidan was a lot of money. But the sponsorship of the oligarchs – this is when you sponsorship gets something. And charity is a little bit more. In this square was a lot of random small money from ordinary people. A number of the oligarchs this is something added, but I have the impression that after the fact they already talked about this to become almost a hero of the revolution. I don’t believe in sponsorship by the oligarchs of the Maidan.
– Do you feel some responsibility for the policies of Yanukovych, which really led to the fact that we have tens of thousands of dead, and we lost part of the territory?
– I feel responsible for my fate: I got to where it wasn’t supposed to be. I probably could have been much more done if I were on the other side. I like to allocate responsibility for specific things. I then stood for a number of philosophical things. I was one of those who voted for the recognition of the Holodomor as genocide, the only one who spoke very harshly against the decision of the party to support the annexation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to recognize their Russian territory. I got a terrible obstruction at the meeting of the political Council, to threats. And then they all under the table climbed, when suddenly Lucas read a brand new resolution, which she gave Yanukovych, in which was written that we recognize. I think that it rewrote my contribution: it was written that the issue of South Ossetia and Abkhazia decides, the UN General Assembly. Were a number of other things, including openly anti-Russian, which I defended there. I think I there is something a little made in order to avoid what happened.
– Say now you are working in the team of President Poroshenko.
– Would like. When I see a man who praises Tymoshenko and Saakashvili, I can’t believe that today a person can sympathize with them. There is a war with Russia – and the person supports outright collaborando Tymoshenko. I have a degree in international law, believe that good. I know Poroshenko, because he had some involvement in the way he became Minister of foreign Affairs. There were serious obstacles, and I was done in order to overcome these difficulties, although, I think my role is minimal. I can appreciate his work and want to understand what is a specific claim, except for a few mistakes in personnel policy, for example, the content of the electoral list, when there were Nayem, Leshchenko, a bunch of other people about whom it was possible to say in advance that they will fight against you.
– Have you received any suggestions regarding posts from the team Poroshenko, in particular for your free position on Poroshenko you are as a person? Below you to use.
– No. I don’t think that I employ, I have my own story – I was once in PR. Proposals were not. I don’t want to be a strategist is not my thing. I wanted the diplomatic service, but did not apply did not ask. I asked. I understand, because I even don’t know English, I German. But it’s important. I said that I didn’t ask because I refuse him to be uncomfortable, and as soon as he, I will appoint – will he be in trouble. It will begin to criticize mercilessly and still for me. And I realized that it is not necessary. I’m too old to get involved in new, not fully understandable to me. I work as an analyst for a large number of agencies. I am completely out of politics, but I still live it. I was 12 years old in BP. Four convocation. The man who spent his whole life in politics, but separated from it, will still be in it to stay. But my main job that I earn money – politics. There’s no emotion, and I write very carefully the things for which I am paid.
– Due to pension reform, voted for by today, you now know what size will your pension and when you will receive?
– For me personally from my working biography of this reform is harmful. I just looked it up and two hands “for”. I am very pleased that finally voted.
– I thank you for the sincere and emotional interview.