What we are doing here is not reform, but an attempt to create an independent state, able to make independent decisions

Journalist, editor of the Internet publication “Censor.NO” Yury Butusov in interview to the program “Gordon” on the TV channel “112 Ukraine” said that it is most annoying to the ATO, why Maidan is still a win and often he was threatened

Gordon: “Gordon”, and today my guest is journalist, editor of the Internet publication “Censor.NO” Yury Butusov.

Good evening. You born and raised in Kiev. For you, a native of Kiev, Kiev? What is the perception you have of your hometown?

Butusov: For me, Kiev is a place where I can feel the energy. For me it is the people who live here. I grew up not in the center of Kiev, and where there were many who came to town. I don’t think Kiev is a city to Kiev. He’s already such a big boiler, a big reactor, which in fact it is created to transform, to attract, to create some new energy.

– You have a scar on his face. Where is he?

Is left from the Maidan, on December 1, 2014, when I was faced with the “Berkut” on the street. “Berkutovets” began throwing stun grenades and stones at the crowd. Threw stones at them and they threw stones at people. Why target they chose me because I precisely flew a few large stones. I was in front of them, one very well-marked – that is why I thought that because it is clear that I am neither a does not represent a threat, I can not, in principle, be for a law enforcement purpose. But, it turned out that they had quite different tasks, so instead, they saw me and started throwing it at me. And a large brick from the ground and hit in the face. I lost consciousness – I lost the glasses and felt that a face of blood. I got off the tractor, walked away, sat down, I ran up to some guy, provided me help. Then I began to withdraw, I met E. Sobolev, took me to the emergency room and there he covered me from “berkutovets”, which ran and have all been beaten. I had medium severity injuries, including a concussion and an open fracture of the skull.

– Today, many people, even Pro-Ukrainian-minded, speak, that in fact Maidan – it was technology. People paid money for that they come out. Is it?

– I think that anyone who was on the Maidan, remembers perfectly that it was absolutely the action of civil society. Talking about money may he who from the Maidan were far or has opposing political views.

– You exclude the fact that at the beginning square it was prepared by people who had some political purpose?

I can’t see that someone was prepared Maidan. I spoke at the end of November, at the end of the first protests, with the leaders of the opposition parties. And I know that each of them was absolutely convinced that on Sunday they will thank people, everyone will go and protest actions will stop. They thought that the power of protests subsides, people have little sense to keep a few tents in the city centre no. Of course, the agreement was that everyone would go home Sunday. That is why this acceleration (beating students) and caused such a surprise. It was absolutely not clear, is not provoked, and no one planned – except power.

– Do you know who gave the order to beat students?

Implementing direct, completely installed. According to that there is the investigation – the order came from the Minister of internal Affairs Zakharchenko and Secretary of the NSDC Klyuyev. Of course, there was a long chain of performers. One of them is now in Ukraine – the immediate supervisor of this operation, Colonel Marinenko, who at the time was the head of public security and directly the formal leader of this operation – in setting of the boundaries of the internal troops on Bankova street.

Some dear people have told me that the order to disperse the students was from Yanukovych. You agree with that?

– It is possible. I’m saying that to the investigators. If Klyuev, Zakharchenko testified in the Ukraine, I am sure that they would be this was described in detail. Formally, the responsibility was on them. Perhaps it was Yanukovych, because when I about four in the morning on Maidan, we saw that the “eagle” pushes all the people (and me too) to the perimeter of the square. It was not clear why they do all people want to drive? I understand that they want someone to demonstrate that there is not one person. Because the logic that they are even random passersby were forbidden to pass, was not.

– What do you remember most during the revolution of dignity, an active participant where you were?

Every day the escalation of heroism and consciousness, which was in my eyes. It was this energy that made people to act. Every day someone of ordinary people doing something on their own initiative, to prove that he is also struggling in some way for their rights, for the rights of other citizens. It consistently incited others to do the same steps. Every day something shoots, and every day it was this story… and it never ceased to amaze really.

– Maidan was the leader?

– There was no formal leader, any leader. But the Maidan there were hundreds of instrumental leaders who took responsibility for a specific area of their work. If we are talking about the political situation, of course, here the lead was taken by people’s deputies, and their role, especially in the first stage, was particularly exceptional and irreplaceable. But the same leaders were at each place. Everywhere you can see some miracles of self-organization, and all arose from the fact that some people on the spot took the responsibility and people started to line up around very quickly. It was an absolute new information reality. That is, the new information communication means that were in people, social networks and the Internet has created a different reality. If earlier Ukrainians were the company “my business”, very quickly lined up the new horizontal communication. I actually saw that the revolution was victorious on 1 December, when I came to the city center and have seen how numerous and how two cars with the loudspeakers that brought the “Fatherland,” can not drive in the center of the square due to the density of people that I had never seen. When I left home, I saw that the whole of Kiev with all homes sits in the subway to go to independence. I saw that the speakers and listened, and unlike all previous protests here, in principle, no one was interested in who says what. All stood, talked, looked online and that was enough. I saw that for the first time the Ukrainians do not have to entertain that politics is not entertainment, but it is a conscious choice and position to be here, to be here. It was a new reality that we, Ukrainians, created on 1 December. We have created a new society, which then began to move swiftly.

– You agree that if it were not for the beating of students, the Maidan subsided?

– I think so.

– Every Sunday Veche. Every Friday in front of the chamber, something happened. It was an artificial reason to gather larger the chamber, or was it really?

– I think actually it was the constant coincidences. Since the end of December, something happened. But it happened almost every day. Just become resonant only some of the events. For example, according to Tatyana Chornovol, is one of the few crimes against the Maidan, not only open, but also completely the fault of the performers and organizers installed. Some of them were punished, some disappeared in Russia. It was not a provocation, a deliberate provocation close to the power of the mafia, for which there are specific gangsters close to President Yanukovych.

– It took 3.5 years after the victory of Maidan. Won whether people who went to the Maidan and who were the Maidan?

– I think Yes. This is a win for everyone. Actually, it was a revolution against the violation of human rights. It was a revolution for the dignity of the citizen, the honor, and those who broke it, they all disappeared from the country (most of them). This victory is a very serious lesson for Ukrainian politics and society. Real independence began there on the Maidan, the independence of the citizen began the independence of the state.

– It has been 3.5 years, and not only that reforms are made – this is the victory of the Maidan? If you had power, no matter how much you needed time to implement the necessary reforms in Ukraine?

– We are building a democratic society. It never be to one person or one political group took power. Ukrainian society is of different nature. Therefore, there can be no such model to one decide something. You need to decide the way it will suit the majority. But reforms are slow because Ukraine really never was an independent state. The last 25 years, Ukraine has been economic, resource, resource appendage of the Russian Federation. In 25 years of independence, economic dependence of Ukraine from Russia has only intensified. This led to the fact that due to the influence of oligarchic groups, oligarchs, Russia began to politically influence the government, on the formation of government in Ukraine took it under control. So our independence was conditional. Speaking about our foreign policy, we three years trying to prove to the West that we are not some quasi-Autonomous structure of Russia, and we came out of the Russian sphere of influence, we are an independent player in world politics. Of course, having no traditions of independent state, without even the attributes of an independent state… our army, what was left of it, in 2013, performed the same tasks as in the 90-ies, during the Soviet Union. All of our defense force was sent to the West of NATO, Russia is not considered an enemy. All this happened because the country was not an independent economy, independent of government, the army, their security. What to say if the Minister of defense, the Chairman of the SBU were citizens of the Russian Federation. It was a conditional independence – independence of certain people and certain sectors of society. But it was not the state. And what we are doing now, is not reform. This is an attempt to create an independent state, able to make independent decisions. When we’re really able to make independent decisions – I think that this is the only task available now the level of our current leaders. I think the next political cycle, the next cadence, following the rotation of political personnel after elections to 2019 has really put objective of reforms. After all, President Poroshenko was not elected as a reformer. President Poroshenko chose in one round in order to legitimize power in Ukraine in General. Because no reforms were chosen – we need was legitimate, according to the Constitution the elected President, because in Rostov was the other President of Ukraine, which tried to introduce “peacekeeping” Russian troops in Ukraine. So the company in 2014 were decided by other political objectives. People just forget. Now, indeed, the agenda of the new election will be another reform. I’m sure that’s how Ukrainians United to the revolution, the war, will also be rallying for reform, and it will be a new agenda, after rebooting in the new government.

– You are the chief editor of the popular publication “the Censor.NO.” For the “Censor” is A. Turchinov?

– No. As this was a personal project of mine, and now is my personal project.

Is a profitable project? The online edition can be profitable?

In 2014-2015 it was a profitable project. Now we have a little decreased according to the market. We are flexible, and therefore a small number of people can resist. Because of the mass media market does not exist, of course, we can create a great media that we need. I had a dream to establish a permanent correspondent item in the Donbas, ATO. We can’t afford it, can’t create big powerful media. Means it is not on the market. We can work solely for the money that generates is.

Leading Ukrainian politicians suggested you, for example, to buy a website?

In reality that was under Yanukovych, there were attempts something to offer. But in fact we are so small in scope – we are not a large structural company. We have no assets, cameras. It’s a small project, and by “Censor” is to purchase several people, especially me. But man is not some kind of industrial assets. You can buy someone who you would think somehow in the same direction. Even if Yanukovych is no one to come to mind. If politician a has some resources, it makes your little own website and Finance it, and expresses their thoughts. In the absence of a media market “Censor” may not be an attractive target. If a small number of people that we have, will start to be lazy, and we’re not going every day from morning to night to write something, and to sit only on the Newswire, the “Censor” will disappear very quickly. All of this exists not because a big powerful machine – a few people who write some original articles and a small group of editors, which gives news. Nothing more we can do.

– Do you have people in the higher echelons of power, which give you information?

I don’t think what I write, the fight against corruption. I’m trying to deal with the mess. To talk about corruption in Ukraine is, in fact, make a great compliment to our management system. Corruption is a sign of some organized system that exists, and within it there is corruption. And we have a very chaotic, postdeadline control system of relations in society. The power in this relationship – one of the players. And not only is she weak – sometimes it’s not clear at all whether it exists in a particular area. I believe that people in one’s life can change everything that’s around you, and therefore if we change the rules of the game, we change ourselves and everything around us. We will build the state which we will be proud of and thousands of people killed over these three years. I have the pain for those lost people who believe the same as I do, that this can be fixed very quickly.

You can still believe?

– I believed and believe. There are some things that, really, should we disturb. There are systemic issues and bugs that need to get out every day. But we must understand that with all that we really want and aspire to changes, we change society, we change not dead – alive. And to improve the living is a complicated process. Democracy means respect for everyone, even to someone who we may not really like. Now for us a very big job – we have to hold democratic, competitive, transparent elections. This is the most difficult challenge for Ukraine. That is what should, in my opinion, work. This will be the result, and shows how more Mature as a democratic state, as a democratic society we have become.

You often threatened?

– Not often. There were a few cases. When Yanukovych threatened me over the article on the state concern “Ukrspirt”. I got the SMS threatening content. I then turned to my friend and mentor, J. Mostovoy, she checked where it was, and it turned out that it was sent from a throwaway card. It so happened that then only I wrote about this in “Mirror of the week” – more it never took place.

Independent journalism in Ukraine is possible?

– It is necessary to understand what this journalism is independent? For Ukraine, some Western terms the. Journalism can never be completely independent. Journalism is part of society and it works on specific social groups of society and to its readers. To be completely independent of something impossible. I know that this approach has some media in the Western press. But we must understand that the Western system of values for us are not always suitable, as they are based on completely different development of civil society. And not all that exists, works in the West, may exist among us. We can be competitive journalism, contributing to the development of civil society. But it must be independent from those who exploit the society, because we lived in a feudal state, feudalism and the us and rules. From feudalism, which was in our power for 23 years and is still not eradicated completely, today, any journalist should be independent.

– Why Russian propaganda ten goals higher than Ukrainian?

– Moscow, Petersburg – it was the intellectual centers, integrators of all intellectual forces. There was laid a very strong tradition and institutions of statehood. It was an authoritarian state, but it has existed for centuries. These traditions were preserved there now. The intellectual level of the managers is fairly high. Unfortunately, it created an authoritarian power, and it mobilized for war best forces. It created a huge propaganda to which annually hundreds of millions of dollars, created a powerful army, intelligence agencies. They started to do all this under Putin, 17 years ago. There is a consistent process for many years, and they were able to take a more systemic solution than us. They survived due to the fact that exploited the former outskirts of the Soviet Union, markets and raw material appendages such as Ukraine, in their own interests. It was very convenient that they are surrounded by a ring was a quasi-independent States, which were controlled by Pro-Russian government and enriched thus Moscow, the Russian center. So do not be surprised that they had it worked out much better – they have practice for 17 years. And we are trying to do just now.

– Who is of Ukrainian journalists for you to sample?

Is Yulia Mostovaya, Rakhmanin S. The.

– Which episodes of the Russian-Ukrainian war impressed you most?

– First of all, it was March 2, 2014, when the mobilization was announced. I went to the draft Board and saw that our military was still closed, but there was a huge queue. And such surprises I’ve had every day for a few.

– What most annoys you in the ATO?

– A lack of purpose. This annoyed me from the start. In fact, it is a problem of our state objectives. It is the lack of an independent state traditions in society and the state apparatus. The main problem we have among state managers is the lack of design thinking. They’re working, sitting in his office, not knowing why it was created this office, what is the goal and the tasks it needs to perform. Changed the state, the history, the new century, and we need to understand when you walked into this office that this is no longer needed. And ATO is the best, because war is the protection of the state, the high concentration of all intellectual and material resources of the state to ensure its own existence.

– In the army now a lot of corruption?

– Unfortunately, Yes. But the perception of corruption in the army and in the country is adjusted. In fact, corruption in Ukraine – in many areas the only possible way of governance. Many issues of cooperation of state institutions to solve quickly, without corruption is impossible, as the regulatory framework contradicts itself. War is a factor that makes the power to introduce methods and solutions, which this corruption has reduced. Not destroyed – it exists, but she declined.

– What Ukraine needs to do to finally the long-awaited world?

– Only to win the war. You need to build, first of all, the purpose, objectives, strategy and organization in order to achieve victory.

But how to kick out Putin, who doesn’t want to go from here?

– The world military history contains hundreds of examples where small countries have successfully received the victory over the great.

– Visa regime with Russia is necessary?

– Is necessary.

– Will suffer from this Ukrainian migrant workers?

– Be sure to hurt millions of people. But because of this, we don’t have a visa already suffered much more than millions of Ukrainian people and, unfortunately, thousands of them died.

– The current Ukrainian political elite doesn’t bother you?

– Not annoying, because I understand that it is part of our society. If we want to build democracy, we need to build it with all those Ukrainians who are. We are a new people and new Ukrainians will not write from America or other civilized countries.

– Do you consider yourself the elite of the Ukrainian society?

– I do not think that the Ukrainian society now is acceptable the word “elite”. For understanding the elitism we still very much need to understand. The elite itself is in any case not think, and it’s even a little weird for a public figure such term to use.

– Any fight against corruption in Ukraine is?

– Of course. In fact, there is a struggle with the chaos, we were talking about. There is a change of moral rules, criteria, and there are a huge number of people who no longer live under the old feudal rules. There is a huge shift. A very large number of people started to work “on-white” – because it’s profitable and possible.

– What do you think about NABOO?

Is Ukraine’s first successful project of building a professional public Institute. Here, the first held staffing competitions, decent working conditions, a new regulatory framework three main fact, really helps to create the state professional body.

– Are you an optimist?

I’m a realist. I try to see solutions, challenges society (and it is my job as a journalist), then of course I can’t be a pessimist.

– Ukraine will break?

Yes.

– Thank you.