Sergei Khrushchev in his interview to the program “Gordon” on the TV channel “112 Ukraine” told why his father gave Crimea to Ukraine, what will happen to Russia and who is Putin
Gordon: “Gordon”. Today my guest is the son of long-time leader of the USSR. S. Khrushchev, Sergei Khrushchev.
Good evening, Sergei Nikitich. I want to remind you that you are not just the son of N. S. Khrushchev, and the famous rocketeer, doctor of technical Sciences, Hero of socialist labor, laureate of Lenin prize. For a long time you were with the father, took part in numerous visits, I have traveled around the country. What you edited during the life of Nikita, his memories and sent them for publication abroad. Since 1991, you live in the US, taught at Brown University and am a Professor. What father would say, which threatened at one time to show America “gruel” if you found out that you live in USA and have American citizenship?
Khrushchev: first, I am retired, teach at the University. Father, I think, said nothing, because I moved at the time when the relationship was so good. He me to nothing forced. I did what I want. I live in America, I am a patriot of Russia. By the way, the patriot of Ukraine, too. And patriot America.
– Your life is tied up with Ukraine – you lived in Kiev for several years, in different periods. Ukrainian you something remember?
– I don’t remember.
– Your cues, your Ukraine, where you lived for many years, is, first of all, what?
– All. I lived there for several years. This and memories, and the Dnieper, and the sand and the sun, and people, and Ukrainian. My Ukrainian friends, they are still a lot. In my time speak Ukrainian not all and not always.
– A few years have you lived in Mezhyhiria. You saw what turned Mezhyhiria Yanukovych?
– No, not seen.
– But you saw on TV when they showed this luxury, this mansion, and not one? What do you think about this?
– Thought nothing. This is a man with not very good taste, and luxury is different. This luxury is cheap.
– How did you react to the Maidan of 2013-2014 in Kyiv?
– With great regret. I believe that this project of regime change in Ukraine interrupted the development of democratic, Ukraine, interrupted the movement of Ukraine towards Europe, destroyed the economy.
But you understood that it was a popular uprising against the thieves in power, and for the European choice of development?
– No, I did not understand, and now do not understand. Yanukovych said to me, I was at these meetings that the goal of Ukraine to go to Europe and become an EU member. And Ukraine, as it is a bridge country between Russia and the EU, was to go slowly, all the while acting in their own interests, their own benefit. Which, by the way, did the Prime Minister Azarov. I believe that he was the best Prime Minister I know. And if Ukraine so gradually go they ran ahead of the engine is unknown to sign any papers, it would be much better and dolgovremennye. There was such an outcry of young people who thought that was a sign and we will go to Europe, visas canceled. And they broke up. Further in this case including, as I understand, the professionals who were supposed to divide Ukraine and Russia, overthrew the government, violated the Constitution and now you have what you have. Unfortunately.
In recent years your father’s curse in Russia for the fact that in 1954 gave the Crimea to Ukraine. Why, by the way, he gave it to him?
– He gave, because if you look at the map, the Crimea is attached to Ukraine. When the Crimea became engaged, and most importantly, to build the canal, which is now unfortunately buried, the planning Commission said that it is better, if will be built under one legal entity. And was transferred to Ukraine as well as passed many regions. There was no policy in Russia like to say: “an Attempt to appease Ukrainian bureaucracy”. And even “a gift from my mother”, which was born in Western Ukraine. No, this is purely the decision of the structural and correct. Crimea began to revive, there is planted a lot of grapes.
Is it true that when N. Khrushchev arrived in the Crimea with the inspection trip, another, to meet him was out the peasants-immigrants from Bryansk, Orel, and begged him to take them back – they could not be there to live and work.
– It’s fiction. At the time when Khrushchev was first Secretary of the Central Committee of KPBU, he Stalin ordered to initiate settlement of the Crimea, the restoration of the Crimea, Sevastopol. He was doing that. There move both Russians and Ukrainians. I know they were not happy with all sorts of people.
– What do you think, did N. Khrushchev, what kind of bomb it lays the transfer of Crimea from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR?
No mines, no one was laid, because if would not upset the development of the Soviet Union, the reform, which in 1964 had already reached the stage when they wanted to give power to the Directors to reduce the role of the party was the new Constitution, the Soviet Union still existed and no such problems were not. I believe in it.
– You said in one interview that “Crimea is not your father gave, and Yeltsin”. What do you mean?
– I meant that, as I read in the memoirs of Kravchuk, when they met in Belovezhskaya Pushcha and have agreed on the termination of the Union contract, then he said that he has a cat clawing at heart. And he said to Yeltsin: “And what about the Crimea?” And Boris is on the table looked, glasses set, and he said, “take the Crimea!” Here Kravchuk and took. Is your Ukrainian witness, you can ask again.
– Your father debunked the cult of Stalin, pulled millions of people out of the camps. Why in modern Russia do not like Khrushchev, whose historical merit, in my opinion, so great?
– I have an opinion about Ukraine, and about Russia. About America. Do not like, because today is the elite that came to power, belonged to the secret police. Stalin created a police state and ran this through the NKVD. And these people think that, of course, also Russian patriots that it was the most effective scheme. They want to show that “we are the successors of power” that carried out the industrialization. This is all wrong, especially about winning the war – no, these people won. But this continuity is. Today their main character – Stalin, Beria, Serov, Abakumov. Those whom Stalin had executed. But it is a reality today.
– Russia likes strong dictators?
All like strong dictators. Until you switched to democracy, you like strong dictators, because you think that he will make things right. And when it turns out that he is doing wrong, then either too late or his overthrow. My students from Pakistan say the same. So Russia, that Ukraine is still far to democracy.
– Many Russian politicians say that their people need a Stalin, and now Putin – this is the original choice of the Russian people. You agree with that?
– No one knows who the people need. Therefore, there is democracy, which differs from the authoritarian regime because there is the rule of law. Not the good will of the ruler, and the law. And one of the main applications of this law – the shifts of power. I believe that after ten years people should go because it’s already developed. All the ideas he has already implemented or not. Russia is afraid, like many other countries, new people. This is a normal period in child development. And when people stay for too long, the country begins to rot, it is not adjusted to the external conditions and, in General, is to revolution. After all, the revolution brought Lenin, and Alexander III, Nikolay II. And then it was not Gorbachev and not Yeltsin and Brezhnev, who stopped by this adjustment. Call it, however, is not stagnation, and stability.
– Brezhnev was a good relationship?
– I was not with him any relationship. When he came to power when he worked with Nikita Sergeyevich, he was a very nice man. Always loved to cuddle, to kiss, he smelled of good Cologne, good cognac. He loved to joke. It was said: “Man holiday”.
– What are you today, years later, think of Stalin?
– Stalin was a bandit. He seized power, discredited her in many ways. He was removed from power many decent people who could provide a more efficient development of the economy and policy. We probably would not have suffered such huge losses in the war because of Stalingrad, Stalin didn’t believe his generals. He said: “You do not understand, so act like that.” And the environment around Kiev, around Kharkov. Only after Stalingrad, he suddenly felt that they need to believe. Stalin was a big problem Russia as a dictator.
– Do you believe in the version of V. Suvorov that Stalin planned to attack Hitler first?
– I don’t believe Suvorov, because he is a professional disinformation. What Stalin planned, I don’t know. But Stalin was not ready, and Hitler made his decision not in response to some of Stalin’s actions, and he took this decision even in the autumn of the 40th year. Preparation for war is a long time. Stalin might have wanted to attack Germany, if he had such an opportunity, if he felt strong enough. I think it couldn’t happen sooner 42-43. Suvorov is fudging the facts. All the books he is a fraud. Very professional, well done. If you these documents are not know these facts don’t know, looks very convincing.
– Father told you nothing about what Stalin was going to attack first?
– Stalin was afraid of Hitler to death. He spoke about it. He said that when Hitler seized Paris, Stalin went into a panic: he was afraid to stay in the country. He knew that Hitler is a great force, bigger threat, and he hoped that he would be able to appease Hitler and to detain him, to now have not attacked. To attack Germany to Stalin at the time, it was still, as it is now North Korea to attack the United States.
– The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, when Stalin and Hitler actually took chunks out of Europe, it is a crime or not?
The word “crime” – not for us to use. At the time, all raked the world: Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese, Britain and France. They agreed therefore to redistribute the world when they had some power. Force was Hitler and Stalin agreed to bite off a piece. “Crime” – it all depends on who is in power today.
– What do you think about Vladimir Putin?
– I think that Vladimir Putin – head in three forms. First Putin – 2000-2008, very effective leader, who destroyed the power of the oligarchy, he restored the rule of law. Started to repay the money, the Russians began to live better. The second Putin after 2008, the year when he already knew that the first stage has been completed. Gaidar gang destroyed the economy as a whole. The country became an exporter of oil and gas. The country needed to transform and restore the economy. He tried – he couldn’t make it, unfortunately. He tried again, and again. Obviously, I had to concede in 2008 to someone else to try. Now he apparently realized that he is not – neither aviation or shipbuilding, and moved away from such cases. Now he goes to school, gives the apartment on my own, as some Rashid. It deals with the tigers, he releases the fry into the lake, then goes North on the earth to see polar bears. He gets from his job, happy about it. He does what he likes, instead to meet with farmers and Directors – he talks with Minister of defense, with law enforcement agencies. Loves military maneuvers.
– The fishing season has expired, in your opinion?
– Putin’s time has expired in 2008. If he had then gone from power, he would have been in history a great leader who restored, as well as Theodore Roosevelt in America, instead of the power of the oligarchy normal power. And now he can turn into a new Brezhnev.
Shortly before the death of M. A. Shevardnadze told me that Beria poisoned Stalin with the tacit consent of Khrushchev, Malenkov and Bulganin. You with this version agree?
– No, of course, because M. A. Shevardnadze also knows nothing, as nobody. I think that Stalin was so guarded that its technically poison was impossible. Didn’t Beria him powders. And could not pour, because Beria opened a bottle of wine and Stalin gave him the first try. He, along with Mikoyan was an expert on guilt. But if Beria told the Colonel, head of security, let’s finish off Stalin, he immediately reported to Stalin, Beria would get there, where do you want Stalin, but Colonel would be a General. And if you would have listened to Beria, he knew that in a month it will not. You can say anything you want.
– What Putin, in your opinion?
I do not know. I don’t know what will happen nor Putin, nor Poroshenko, I just know what will happen with trump: his four years, probably not elect.
And impeachment will not announce early?
– Impeachment in America can declare only if you have violated the Constitution, broke the law. And the only way to do that is to lie under oath. As it was with Nixon. Similar situation was with Clinton. It knows trump, but this whole hunting “witches” and anti-Russian hysteria is the remnants of inner-party struggle.
– What about Russia?
– Nothing will happen. If Ukraine is a bridge between Russia and Europe, Russia is the bridge between East and West. Between China and the West. It’s a rich country, rich in natural resources. She was fastened to the West until 2014, and now, after sanctions push her away, to China. The transition process will end and she will partner China. Russia is a great power. Will not be a superpower. But it will always mean and be a world player.
– Go back to Russia you do not want?
– I come back every year. There I have children and grandchildren. But I already have a little with someone is to communicate a little than have to deal with. Here I have 16 acres – and there I sit, as a guest, unfortunately.
– Who among the Ukrainian politicians do you like?
– Ukrainian politicians I liked N. Azarov, in his time. I liked Kuchma. He was a man of acumen, business. When the economy started to grow. He was an effective leader. And now I do not see where someone would have gave me positive emotions, unfortunately.
Who, in your opinion, is the best Ukrainian President for 26 years of independence?
– I told you – Kuchma.
– What will happen to Ukraine, in your opinion?
– I think that Ukraine as well as Russia, is in very serious condition. She is going through a great tragedy. And, unfortunately, armed men largely determine policy, she will continue to fight. And so it is possible that in sufficiently close time Lugansk and Donetsk will pass the point of no return. They will not join neither to Russia nor to Ukraine – they will be your own unrecognized Republic. By the way, I say Donetsk residents that they live now even better than in Ukraine: I don’t know whether it’s true or not. Before there was a balance: the party Western party vostochnobeisky. Vostochnobeisky party is now ruined, and it may lead you some time to trouble in other regions, if we fail to restore the economy. And I don’t see how to restore the economy, because it was tied to Russia. And today, it is no one else tied. Ukraine is now, unfortunately, useless. She doesn’t need America, it is already a burden for Europe. She still needs Russia, but, probably, too will soon become unnecessary.
– We have now a lot of talk in the community is about the figures Bandera and Shukhevych. What kind of figures Bandera and Shukhevych? What you know about them?
They are fighters, ultranationalists. Like today’s Islamists, they defended the idea of Ukraine’s independence. Fought against Poland, fought against the Soviet Union to the last. People are very cruel. I would not be renamed in their honour avenues. But today, when Ukraine is trying to find identity – she searches for its heroes. Earlier heroes were – Shchors, and now it can be Shukhevych or Petlura.
– A General Vatutin you personally know?
– Knew, but not very well. He died when I was a boy. He was a good General, a very kind man. He liberated Kiev, liberated Ukraine and if Ukraine today said that he didn’t, and someone else, you can say anything.
– It is said that he laid too much of people, hundreds of thousands, when liberated Kiev. Need today Kiev Prospekt Vatutina?
– First of all, the hundreds of thousands he has not put, when liberated Kiev. There was a strong fight on lyutezhsky bridgehead – I know well enough about the whole thing. But from Kiev, the Germans left themselves, because there already was it uncomfortable to stay, and General Moskalenko went in there, when the Germans were no longer there. And you need something to stay or not, each generation decides on its own. First was abolished in Russia, Stolypin, and now restored Stolypin. Ukraine was the prospect Vatutina, has now been canceled. What happens when you’re my age, I don’t know.
– Your father made a revolutionary step, when I decided to build a “Khrushchev” so-called. They are the period actually served. In Moscow they have massively demolished. Do I need to bear them in other cities?
– All you need to demolish. They have served their sentences. It was the first mass-production, mass homes. Just as the first production car was Ford’s model T – and now no one goes. Now go on very different Fords. So they served his. Another thing that will tear them down and about Khrushchev forget. Will tell you what were the “hruscheby”, “Khrushchev”.
– For whom did you vote in the US presidential election?
For Trump. I believe that was more suitable than Hillary, because he’s the leader, self-sufficient man, able to make decisions. And America is very necessary. America is gradually degraded – she told me today is reminiscent of Brezhnev’s Russia. Every year lives a little worse, no one invests neither in science nor in learning, and the six trillion dollars spent on adventures in the middle East. It is not clear what and how to punish the “bad guys”. And to punish them it is impossible – it has its own religious war. Similarly, there is no longer dependent on America, like today’s war in Ukraine. As if America didn’t want to influence, life goes by its own laws. Trump correctly said that we need to return America to greatness, you need to begin investing in America. But he gets nothing to do. For six months they discuss whether met his some Senator with the Russian Ambassador. It’s ridiculous, all meet. Kennedy met Nixon met with Khrushchev.
Third world war possible, in your opinion?
– Impossible, I think, because today wars occur on the periphery for some kind of impact in selected areas. Today, global competition in the world, who will dominate, went to the economy. Wins the one who will have greater advantage in income in the economy, who will control the world’s finances who have the best technology. And, unfortunately, today the pendulum swings to the East. America is losing its position. It will still be a great power, it will continue to impose its will, but America will also experience and nostalgia as Russia is today, and yesterday UK.
You father often?
– Remember not so often. But always remember about it. I have always loved. He’s my father, not only a great leader of a great state. He’s a good man.
– What are today if the opportunity came up, you would have asked N. S. Khrushchev?
– Nothing, because his time has passed. He knew, by the way, unlike Putin that it is necessary to leave. And before it was removed, he said “I’m leaving, but first will spend these two reforms, and go not in’ 64, and at the end of ’65”. I never tried to upset him as he said “stupid questions”. Now is the time to take political decisions to politicians – they take it. And if I disagree with them, I think of Ilf and Petrov – “pique vests”. I don’t want to be “pique vest”.
– 64-year-old hatched a plot against N. S. Khrushchev. You have been informed about the impending conspiracy, and you said this father. This was also notified you Mikoyan. Do you feel a historical responsibility for what is being warned about the offset of your father from all the posts, you are not able to convince. Insisted that he took precautions.
– I could not insist on something. I think it is not that I don’t believe it, and he just thought that these people are his supporters that they will carry out his policies. Personally, if they are unhappy – well, we’ll see. No politician, warned, and even if he thinks it’s unlikely, not leaving on vacation. He remains in the capital to monitor the situation. And Khrushchev left, and thus gave them freedom of action. It was his decision. Unfortunately, the selection of successors he was not very suitable, and they developed all the policies and the economy back. Back inefficient centralized economy, set a decaying power, decided not to reform and led the country to ruin. The head of all stood to Brezhnev and Shelepin and Semichastny was largely propelled this whole thing. By the way, I do not understand why, because Khrushchev was going to change the members of the Presidium of the Central Committee – to refresh and rejuvenate. Brezhnev, Podgorny was the feeling that they will change, but just Shelepin and Sevenfold, probably, would come to power. And they hurried and lost.
– Thank you very much for this interview. I’m not agree of what you said. But I have great respect for you, for your opinion. I hope today you were able to appreciate the pluralism of opinions in modern Ukraine, freedom of speech and that had the opportunity to have a free discussion. Lively and open dialogue.