Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador Markiyan Lubkivskyi in an interview to the program “Gordon” on the TV channel “112 Ukraine” said that should Ukraine use the experience of Croatia, why bezviz is only a small victory and what to expect from the Ukraine trump
Gordon: Good evening. In the radio program “Gordon”, and my guest Markiyan Lubkivsky.
Good evening. You came back from Vilnius, where he was at the invitation of G. Kasparov. What was it?
Lubkivsky: It was a very interesting meeting and very interesting talks. We Nalyvaichenko was in Vilnius, where he had talks with G. Kasparov, with our Lithuanian and American partners. I was under the impression that the two leaders of the new Russia and the new Ukraine had a very close and trusting relationship. We had already the discussion and sharing of documents and joint plan of cooperation. I think this is the beginning of the interaction, which can give a good result.
– Do you think that Kasparov may be the new leader of Russia?
– I think he already is. There are many people who pretend to be the Russian opposition. But Kasparov seems to me and Nalyvaychenko most reliable and the most Pro-Ukrainian. It has a very strong Pro-Ukrainian position, and no coincidence, the result of the meeting in Vilnius was the Declaration of the forum, which clearly States that Crimea is an integral part of Ukraine, and his need to return to our state.
– The influence of your father, a prominent Ukrainian writer R. Lubkivskyi, you big?
– Is determined. I am very sorry to understand that it is not, but for me it’s all is the universe. Father, brother gave a lot, and it is not material but spiritual. This is what leads us in life.
The works of the father you know?
Is a paradox. Dad always taught us, encouraged to learn poetry by I. Franko, Lesia Ukrainka, Taras Shevchenko. These works I know well. Father works know read now, starting with his first collections. But if to speak directly about poetry, it’s my dad’s lyrics, especially his relationship to his mother defines my attitude to his wife and children.
– What is the product of father’s favorite?
Is the poem “Mater”. This is the verse for me is always in the heart.
Aching mene, Mamo,
Aching mene, Mamo,
Pecut me Ochi –
Laskov, sin –
I tasneen scran two
– How many languages, except Russian and Ukrainian, you know?
English, Serbian, Croatian. I know all Balkan languages, Macedonian and Bulgarian, can communicate. My Luggage also Polish. In fact, all Slavic languages are not alien to me.
– 2.5 years you were the Ambassador of Ukraine in Croatia. True that you have dual citizenship: Ukrainian and Croatian?
– This is nonsense. I have only one nationality – Ukrainian.
– What do you think about dual citizenship?
– I think nothing wrong with that. Importantly, the government has clearly regulated this issue and to avoid confusion. We have hundreds of thousands of citizens to have multiple citizenships. Our citizens are fighting all of our neighbors: starting from Russian and ending with the poles. Therefore, the government should be honest with themselves and the citizens clearly and legally defined, as it should be. I’m not against dual citizenship and for that we did not exclude those citizens who live in Canada, and in America, and all of our Ukrainians is very important.
– But not, perhaps, to have Russian citizenship?
– I believe that our officials do not have the right to have dual citizenship, and as ordinary people… today’s Russia is the enemy. Putin’s regime is the enemy. And it will take 5-10 years. We will win the war, how to live? I mean, let’s think more global. If a person wants to be a Russian citizen then Yes, but I would Russian citizenship I never had.
– Wrote that you are in Croatia sold drugs and prostitutes.
– Then, how did these publications, and they appeared at a time when I defended the position of Ukraine in gas war with Russia, I called the Minister of foreign Affairs V. Ogryzko, reported on the situation and asked them to send a Commission that would be sorted out. I also appealed to the Chairman of SBU V. Nalyvaychenko. For me it was very painful is that how to fight with lies on the Internet. So for me it’s still a very plaintive question is a blow to the image, especially because it’s not true. No second passport or second citizenship, no property I have abroad no.
You the bombing of Yugoslavia saw?
– I was at that time in Belgrade – for me it was the most interesting, the most difficult phase of my diplomatic career. From 24 March to 10 June 1999 I was at work at the Ukrainian Embassy in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and, in fact, was in the midst of the Balkan crisis at the time. On March 24, the bombing began. I thought he would bomb the cosmetically Kosovo, and all the families of the Embassy will be back in a week. But they returned only after 78 days.
– How to feel it?
– I saw it. This is a war. I’ve seen the corpses, and the people broken, destruction. I was 100 m from the places where it was torn “Tomahawk” because I lived in the city centre. For me it was the freshness, something new. A young diplomat, an interesting country, world conflict, and you’re in the middle. This fear, killed people, destroyed homes, the Milosevic regime.
– You saw Milosevic?
– Seen and translated for him during the presentation of credentials by Ambassador of Ukraine V. was Furkalo, during talks with Boris Tarasyuk, there were three cases when I translated for Milosevic, which, by the way, an excellent knowledge of the English language. Often it was used.
– What kind of man Milosevic was?
Is a boa constrictor. He looks at you and you become his victim. He tightened the power of words, logic, conviction, obsession. I always watched his companions, so I was just a translator, I had to convey the essence of the conversation, but he delayed, he could persuade, he could rigidly behave with someone. They had talks with R. Holbrooke for 17-20 hours. It was very uncomfortable, hard and often brutal Balkan leader. He worked with Tito, but not directly. His star rose after Tito was gone. And when during the chaos after the system that left Tito, came the young, hard, brutal leaders, including Serbian, and Serbian nationalism, they went into politics, and, in fact, they began possible to dominate, in order to collect the countries that are left behind Joseph Broz.
– Why the Russians did not save Milosevic, in your opinion?
I think they did not plan to. The fact that Primakov turned his plane in the air, it was more of a gesture to impress. They understood that the United States and the international community will not let out of his “embrace” of Milosevic.
– America and the world community no one will be released from their “arms,” if you really want to “hug”?
– No one. If it comes down to understanding that a particular issue needs to be resolved that is the end, then, I think, bring the case to the end.
– Putin does not come?
– I think, come to that. Now the US plans, judging by the rhetoric of D. trump and American leaders, is North Korea and Iran. I do not exclude that the US can pretty hard lead in these two countries – two as saying, an axis of evil.
And trump will remain as President?
– I do not see reason to talk about impeachment or early termination of the powers of the President D. trump. We are all witnesses of the fierce struggle between the two camps, but I do like the diplomat don’t see the critical mass that would allow me to say today what will be the resignation of D. trump.
– What are the lessons from the events in Yugoslavia should make Ukraine?
In 1998, before the Kosovo crisis, a friend of mine told me a terrible thing: “Ukraine will disintegrate into four parts”. I told him that this is unrealistic. He said to me, “See.” I refused to believe that this could happen, but now I see that Ukraine is essentially broke up: she took one piece and two. Collapsed not our fault – the fault of the Russian Federation – in three parts. Have annexed Crimea, there are occupied territories of the East, ORDO, is Ukraine. Already there are three parts. And I’d really like to today the leadership of the state is extremely responsible attitude would be to not just to keep Ukraine together, which is today, but also to return and ORDA, and the Crimea. This is a very difficult task, but it should strive, and we will never be able to give up the Crimea or from the temporarily occupied territories of the East.
– What Ukraine needs to draw on the experience of Croatia?
– There are several aspects. The first is the question of patriotism and love to their state. It helped the Croats to win the war. If it were not for this rod, Croatian, they would not have won. And we have this rod, unfortunately, no. When I worked in the SBU Nalyvaychenko, such was the impression that half the country is in doubt, what is Ukraine, Ukrainian language, history. You need to be respectful to any language, but clearly this issue is very important and painful. I want us to love other languages through the language of the country in which we live, through history, through knowledge of history. This issue is extremely important. The second aspect is a military organization, organization of the army. Care about the military. The Croats were able, starting in 1991 until 1995, when he made two brilliant operation, to organize the army. It is under a military embargo on weapons. The Croats also started with ATO, but they were not afraid, in fact, to call it a war. Did the President F. Tudjman, who will forever go down in history as the President who won a war against a much stronger opponent. They love him there, worship.
– You were the Director of “Euro-2012”. Is it true that Platini has said that if Ukraine will not have time to prepare for Euro soccer will play in your head?
My head is in place – this means that the Euro is successful. Indeed, there was an episode after one of the meetings held in the headquarters of the organization. Platini has called me and my boss, M. Kallen, operational Director of UEFA, said that if something goes wrong, he will play with our minds in football.
– It was interesting to engage in “Euros”?
They are very interesting. I think that for me, this was a difficult diplomatic work in my life. It was a unique project. And such projects are not often repeated in history. I am proud to have worked then as part of a team the League that I was entrusted with this work. In the beginning I knew nothing, but I learned. Most interesting is that Euro-2012 remains the best organized tournament in the history of UEFA for all time.
– Who of those with whom I had contact during the preparations for the “Euro” made the greatest impression on you?
– M. Platini, Infantino D. M. Callen.
– Yanukovych had to communicate during the preparation for the “Euro”?
Yes. I was invited as the UEFA representative at the meeting, which was held in AP. It was a very strange meeting – hard. I was in the meetings, rather, in the role of controller. So he was always looking for me and asking the truth if he said a particular officer on the preparation of an object. So I was with one hand, afraid and on the other hated. And after the meeting, many tried to withdraw me aside and say, “You think next time, say”. As I said I can’t go beyond the report to UEFA and to tell the truth.
– You have earned a lot of “Euro-2012”?
I earned as much as I paid UEFA. I had a high salary is many thousands of euros. But I didn’t have anything to do with public funds. Was the salary, and clearly defined functions.
– After independence, you became adviser to the Chairman of SBU V. Nalyvaychenko. That you advised him at that time?
Summer 14, the year I couldn’t find a place. Especially difficult was the perception of Ilovaisk tragedy and everything that happened at the front. I worked in the international private company, and I made the decision to leave the job with a high salary and go to work to Valentina, whom I have known since 2000. I told Valentin that can help him in matters of information and foreign policy. And he took me by the EA. In matters of international Valentin himself is very professional, because he is a diplomat, so I was focused on media relations and working with the public.
– To the secrets of some you made?
Yes. I had a certain level of tolerance.
– Was the mystery that impressed you?
– It was a mystery, which, on the other hand, are not secrets. And they was against us, Russia is waging war. I’m very close in that time worked with colleagues from counterintelligence. Every day there was information that affects me, how many traitors, what is the situation at the front, as against us, the enemy does. Concentrated treason, of course, was in the Crimea and in the Donbas.
– Who is behind Nalyvaichenko – the US or Russia?
For Nalyvaichenko is Nalyvaychenko. He has very good relations with the American side. He has a very serious position – and then, when he was Consul General in the United States, and now.
– Do Nalyvaychenko one of the main contenders for the presidency?
– I’d like that very much, I believe him. I believe that this man could be President, if he will trust people.
– One of the Ministers of the foreign Ministry was the best since independence of Ukraine?
– I worked with almost all the foreign Ministers, with the exception of Poroshenko. Me took G. I. Udovenko, and I was transferred to Yugoslavia. My second father, I believe A. M. Zlenko. I consider him a father of Ukrainian diplomacy. I have great respect for K. I. Grishchenko, with which I had a very difficult but extremely fruitful years of cooperation. This is a very decent and Patriotic man who has done a lot for Ukraine. The statement of diplomats spoken to us, together with colleagues during the Orange revolution, the last read Grishchenko. He was aware of what we do, and it didn’t bother us. If it was not Grishchenko, it would be possible to expect persecution, but he did not, which testifies to his integrity.
– Russia Ukrainian diplomats recruits?
– Recruits. I do not know now, but I had cases when I once came to his office in Belgrade and saw there unknown person. He said in Russian that he is my colleague from the Embassy of the Russian Federation. And here was a man who worked with me and performed the duties of safety officer. I asked who this man was, and he told me that he’d explain later. This is an episode of the sample 98. After this person left the Embassy, I tried to find out for myself what it was, and even wrote a report for the Ambassador, but she did not receive the course. I will not say that we are talking about 2000, very often our diplomats shared the residence with Russian – “common home”. Very often Ukrainian employees working in the field of foreign policy, contact at the household level. It is very difficult to simultaneously sever the umbilical cord that connects people. People are not allowed to communicate at the household level. But in this life Russia goes very deep in us. And it is very difficult to work for our intelligence services to prevent the surrender of national interests.
– Today, many Ukrainian diplomats are agents of Russia?
– I cannot say in numbers, but apparently there is. I am convinced that the foreign Ministry in this situation must pass a very serious test, particularly our employees who work in the countries formed after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. I am convinced that the foreign Ministry must also pass their lustration. While it escaped, but the people who are mired in work against Ukraine, should be suspended from work.
– What actually happened at the time, Azarov?
– SBU was established at the time that Azarov engaged in anti-Ukrainian activity and through it sponsored psevdoprotestny action in Kiev. It was established, how to transfer money from his Moscow office, who they were transported and why they were then applied. That’s all that I did not share with Azarov.
– What our government is doing with Crimea and Donbas, you, personally, like?
– Do not like. But I think how to do better or differently. I for that we called a spade a spade. Waging war against us – it’s not ATO, is much more serious. Putin’s Goal Is Ukraine. Right now we should be as strong, smart and, however, not to use the image of Putin and Putin’s evil to intimidate its own population, opposition politicians and the media.
– What will happen with the Crimea and Donbass, in your opinion?
– I think that these areas will return to Ukraine. But it will take time. I never believed that the war could be won in a week or two. It’s impossible. They’ll be back, if not today, then over the years. We must be wise, balanced and understand that every day of the Ukrainian diplomacy, and APU, and the Ukrainian economy should do everything to ensure that we returned to these areas. These words I said to my Croatian colleagues.
– What Ukraine should expect from D. trump?
Support. Judging by his recent statements made during his historic tour in the Arab world is a very important signal for us. I think that trump will support the Ukrainian people. With the power situation a bit more complicated. And it is connected not only with the fact that the stakes in this election was made in favor of Clinton. We are talking about the set of problems that we have today ranging from corruption to lack of reforms. If the situation will change and Ukraine will truly be on the path of development, it may be of interest to us from the American leadership. If they do not support the government will not.
– Russian mark in victory trump is tracked?
– This issue is now being studied. Anyone in the US could be under investigation and must prove his innocence. That’s what the lawyers are doing now D. trump.
– Entered into force bezviz. This is a victory for Ukraine?
– Victory, but very little. I wish such victories we had in the country. We have to become European without going abroad, and being in Ukraine.
– Many Ukrainians can stay in Europe?
– I wouldn’t want that, because if that happens, we’ll lose visa-free status because a visa-free regime does not allow people to work abroad, to visit relatives, to go as a tourist.
– If will invite to work?
– It is necessary to get a work visa, enter legally and work legally. It was therefore the problem could not develop a mechanism to return to a visa regime. So I would very much like Europe here.
– Many Ukrainians are now left in the world?
– Very much. According to information which I possess – 10 million definitely is. At the time, went to work abroad and the poles and the Croats, but returned to his home.
– I thank you for the interview.