The first Chapter of “people\’s movement”, an outstanding Ukrainian poet Ivan Drach in interview to the program “Gordon” on the TV channel “112 Ukraine” said about whether he\’s the star of the Hero of Ukraine, you want the return of the Donbass and Crimea, and if he still has friends in Moscow
Gordon: “Gordon”, and my guest today is an outstanding Ukrainian poet Ivan Drach.
Good evening. 31 one year you were a member of the Communist party. A little of the Communist ideals you believed then?
Drach: is Not the word that I believed. I was so ardent pioneer, a Komsomol member.
Today you realize that was, excuse me, stupid?
Is not the word! Superglobal and naive. But it\’s our generation that was. We were brought up. We cried when Stalin died.
Today many of your peers do not understand that they were misled. They believe that if it was all good.
– And where those millions of people who died from hunger, died in the war? It\’s all from Stalin.
– Have you ever been in the 70-80-ies to be a conformist?
– I\’m a Communist would have been, if I wasn\’t a conformist?! It is included in the notion of: we were the conformists. But slowly we moved away from conformism, and on some new tracks. Very difficult it all was given. Very slowly, I could see.
– You were the first Chairman of the people\’s movement of Ukraine. How did in 1991, the Communists and Rukh to come together and proclaim a welcome Rukhovets independence?
We hook or by crook tried to persuade that it is basic. When we had the chain from Kiev to Lviv, Kravchuk went to see what it is we organized, and I have since said that Kravchuk went to the head of the ideological Department, and returned the next President of Ukraine. He saw that it had to be ridden. He is clever and cunning.
– The independence of Ukraine, soon to be 26 years old, crashed in Ukraine from the sky?
– No. This is absolute nonsense. And what did those millions of people died? And for that in every political camp most of the prisoners were of Ukrainian lands? Fought for decades, for centuries. And won, finally. We had such a fate that we are involved in the creation of these important things.
– Management of the movement of KGB agents had a lot?
– It\’s hard for me to talk about it. I don\’t know this and didn\’t want to know. Know what claims were to Burlakov, who was head of the Secretariat of Rukh, and then he worked in security. It has led M. Horyn, and it later turned out that it worked fine. It\’s hard to say who was the agent. Then it was all immaterial, because it was necessary to completely mobilize all the main things. The main thing – the proclamation of independence. And here it was necessary to have the appropriate contacts with Kravchuk.
– You were taken into KDB. Beat you there?
– Never hit, just scared. Prison, Siberia. Since then, I began to understand something about our bodies.
– What is the figure for Ukraine V. Chornovil?
– The figure is very interesting. I don\’t think that as ambitious as it is trying to do. This man of average intelligence and understanding, but surprisingly desperate, bold, sharp. And here, perhaps, did not have such a great mind, and it was necessary to attack and go forward. The fact that our nation was not ready for Chornovil. For him voted almost the same as we had in BP. By the time our people were ready at a quarter to everything that happened. And it happened purely by chance, for different reasons: the Berlin wall, the Polish “Solidarity”, the fronts in the Baltic States.
– Chornovil was murdered, in your opinion?
– I think I did. Well, what idiot could deploy your KAMAZ! I think that it was all organized. And who is organized, our services or Moscow – I can\’t say.
– You\’ve been involved in politics. It is a waste of life or not?
– No. Now I\’m working on a 12-volume edition. One of the volumes is called “Politics”. This is my life. Where do I go from this!
– When you were a Deputy, those members were more honest, more intelligent.
When the Maidan began, there was a mistake. It did not start policy, and that “apolitical” I had to organize themselves so that they could from time to time to control everything that happens to this nightmare was not. They released all of it at once.
– When you look at politicians in Parliament, what do you think?
– We have an oligarchy, where we will hold your hand on it. Us is ruled by oligarchs, and each of them has its own system of deputies, and they\’re among the squabble do, do their job. Because to me it is tragic, sad and incredibly hard to watch it all. I never thought that we are starting a Ukraine that will live up to such a stupid state as it is now.
– Is the Ukrainian politicians who you like today?
– Do you accept the “Minsk” or not accept, but I think what they\’re doing Kuchma, Marchuk, Gorbulin, doing what Immortal, what is that people are decent. They are trying to squeeze out of the situation into which they put a global trend as possible. But it seems to me (from what happens) that the case of two systems of civilizations: Orthodox-Russian, as such, and European-American. And here they ran into each other on the territory of Ukraine, and they are young Ukrainian blood to lubricate the cogs of this terrible mechanism.
– And at least one of the politicians in Parliament do you like?
– There are, of course, there are girls and boys. Hire interesting, CSAC beautiful and smart. But it hurts me more not because what\’s going on in Parliament, but because of what happened with our people, or the electorate. Brought to the world catastrophe, the glory as of Lviv landfill. This is our Piedmont of the Ukrainian revolutionary revival! But in Volhynia, the birthplace of the UPA, have been amber in trouble. And it brought to such system of our government. I believe that for everything that happens in Ukraine should be primarily responsible those five presidents, Prime Ministers and twenty, thousands of deputies, among them I, a sinner. Guilt is for someone to steal, but the point is how to handle all this.
– You like Nazarbayev as President?
– It is for me a very interesting person. At least this was the last thing he introduces the Latin alphabet. I personally with the President of Kazakhstan since ancient times. He once came to a meeting of the Cabinet of Ministers of the USSR, when he was still Prime Minister. The meeting was conducted in Russian, and he spoke Ukrainian. I have in Kazakhstan, there are many friends and acquaintances. And I respect the people. He\’s a very interesting dynamic, and he was lucky with the leader. I would give all of our five presidents during one of Nazarbayev.
– Did you have many friends in Moscow. You communicate with them now or not?
– I recently traveled to Baku, the Chairman of the Union of writers of Azerbaijan. I gave a speech there, and acutely against me were made by the representatives of the “Russian world”. And protected me from the former Minister of culture, former rector of the literary Institute Yevgeny Sidorov. And now I think that if we want to overcome this corn (Putin or the Kremlin), we have to establish contacts with some Russian elites that represent such as Shenderovich and Kim. By all means it is necessary to establish all of these contacts. You should not believe that we will cope with this force for yourself.
– Could you ever imagine what would happen to Russian-Ukrainian war?
– I never thought such a horror to live.
– How did you feel when Russia chop off the Crimea?
I felt all the idiocy of our government and our leadership, headed by Turchynov. I served three years in the army. I know what it is. I know that when someone goes, “Halt, who goes there?! Stop or I\’ll shoot!”, shot up and then shot in the chest. If in the Crimea killed 100 or even 1,000 of our people that were there, then maybe there would be this terror in the Donbass, there would be hundreds of thousands of deaths. It was a huge mistake for our state then.
– And what to do with the Crimea and Donbass?
– I recently asked a Professor Beletsky from the Donbass, who created mining encyclopedia of 12 volumes. Nowhere in the world there is no such encyclopedia. There is a lot of intellectuals. But despite all this, there are Pro-Russian, that they even separatists is difficult to call. They will never concede there. Of course, when Putin will suffer, they will flee to Russia, but whatever it is – it is a problem very long. Problem decades.
– Do you personally want the Crimea and the Donbass back to Ukraine?
– In what situation Donbass – I told you. As for the Crimea, then the wisest thing would be to create a separate state structure with the Crimean Tatars, but to create, under the auspices of the United States, Europe, Ukraine, Russia. It to be a separate state, so it was a world pearl, as written by P. Neruda about the Crimea, it “medal on the chest of the earth.”
– What kind of man is Putin?
– I think that to underestimate him. We cannot say that he only tactics. He thinks very strategically, very much aware, and he took one to save Imperial Russia, to continue the work of tsars, Lenin, Stalin. And people support. The Russian people are largely aggressive. He was so used to. Our people were engaged in agriculture, and in the majority is good people. When it is brought “to daze”, it becomes Gaydamak, Bandera and the like. But, in General, it must be very excite to become for this role. Else to blame and our philosophy. Guilty frying Pan with his kindness. Late Shevchenko called for kindness. For centuries our intellectual elite were guilty with the good because too much good in our ordinary character.
– The Ukraine in General?
– Ukraine can not be, because when in such situations, there are volunteers, and they are the world\’s miracle, they defend themselves, Ukraine, freedom in the European dimension…
– What is the Ukrainian national idea?
– I think that the main promoter of this case we have T. G. Shevchenko. We do not say wiser there. When we started the movement, we fought for a free man in a free and independent country. Unfortunately, independence – whatever it may have been there! and independent, free man has no. We have Joe blow in the embroidery that embroidery was allowed to fly of the trousers, and, at times, as you look at it all, it gets scary.
– Is there a difference between patriotism and nationalism?
– The fact that when you do good for its people, how it will be called… this defines it all. Vernadsky said that when he looks at their actions, not looking at anybody evaluations: “I see myself shattering”. When we begin to say and do things that can annoy someone, like the bridge of Bandera or Shukhevych prospect, maybe better to name the bridge Vernadskogo, or maybe even some more tolerant of things. We are very clumsy, careless… No tact, no manners.
– Bandera and Shukhevych a hero to you?
For me they are heroes because they fought for an independent Ukraine. Another thing, how they fought, what methods they had. This is one from another should be separated.
You Are A Hero Of Ukraine. You wear the heroic star?
I never wore this stars.
– Which of the Ukrainian poets, in your opinion, is great?
One: Taras. Franco was, in my opinion, the most intelligent writer. Les – insightful lyricist and a master drum.
– Who of today\’s best poets in Ukrainian poetry?
– Lina Kostenko, the late Nikolai Vingranovsky. These are people of high talent. Dmytro Pavlychko.
– Is it true that Yanukovych read you own poetry?
He\’s not only read the poems. He turned me on to your Sacristia and said, “Here is the lamp, an icon, and here is a picture of my friend. And I\’ll recite a poem I wrote in honor of his friend.” It struck me that extremely. He also struck me that when he gave Shevchenko prize, he is the first prize given for works devoted to Bandera, the UPA and the like. I then stood on the Shevchenko Committee and said he is right, because the President should be the left and the right, and those in the middle. The President should be for all people. But then, when I approached him to help Mortar, it did not help. And when came the law on languages, we with Mortar defiantly came from the Humanities Council, protesting against its policies.
– What happened with your son?
The son died. It is still unclear. I have appealed to all presidents, Prime Ministers.
Recently in the United States died, the poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko. You feel sad for him?
I\’m sad because it was my friend. He supported me, Dzyuba, when I had a complicated situation. He was a generous man.
– You saw so many eras. Interesting life you have?
– Super-interesting. It is necessary to keep up with them.
– Happiness is what?
– Happiness is something that a cherished dream, somewhere ahead. It\’s like the horizon line, which runs: you catch up, and it is not, ever.
– You are a happy person?
– Probably. I have very large wings and joy, and sorrow. And so I\’m happy.
– I thank you.